I need some proper and final info about Saving Throws sistem in game

I really need to clear one detail about this, because of scripts I work on, some spells undergo calculations to determine final chance of effect.  For example, when creature cast Symbol Stun and want to hit target where chance is highest Stun effect will apply, you have to take both Magic resistance and Save vs Spell into calculation.

Now - exact question is - Saving Throw value of 2, is exactly how much percent of chance to save, 5% or 10% ?

Assuming, that spell cast do not have Save penality.

I tested (let creature be hit hundreds of time with weapon which apply some effect - probability 100%, but with save penality at 0), at creature which have Saving Throw value of 1, and 20. So I can 100% say, on 1 it will always save, on 20 it will always fail.

But I need to know values between.
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Comments

  • The most detailed description may be this:

    This may be helpful (there are also further links to topics there:

    I have never looked into this issue myself, so I cannot provide any detail. (Honestly, I do not even want to know, because when playing I want some surprises to have a realistic  impression and not be able to calculate the outcome beforehand. Randomness keeps the game fresh for me...)
  • Understand. I'm asking because of creatures  I work on, as I try to get their calculation to perfection. For me, as player, also doesn't mean much, I try to lower it as much as I can, have to do it anyway.

    Some of these links I already did read, but I will check rest, and Reddit also have links to Beamdog where I will check is there information I seek.

    Mostly, people talk is there critical "hit" and "misses" like with weapons, but I seek speficit info.

    I already tested, 1 will always return as save made, 20 will always fail. Assuming 0 penality in spell.

    but if
    1-0%
    2-5%
    3-10%
    4-15%
    5-20%
    6-25%
    7-30%
    8-35%
    9-40%
    10-45%
    11-50%
    12-55%
    13-60%
    14-65%
    15-70%
    16-75%
    17-80%
    18-85%
    19-90%
    20-100%

    As you can see, there is 5% missing :)

    I will find out.
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  • There are 20 integers, each worth 5%.  Why do you believe 5% is missing?
  • Yes, it looks simple as you say, but pay attention on what I'm talking of (especially on example like 10-45%).

    I confirmed that 1 Save always save, and 20 always fail a save (assuming spell or effect is 0 penality).

    But if you consider 19 to be 95% chance, than 2 must be 10%. Or if, 2 is 5%, than 19 is 90%.

    Maybe I'm missing something but would like really to understand.
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  • I think you are over thinking this.  On a saving throw, it is just a D20 random number generator using 1 through 20, with each number as a whole number (no fractions).  The percentage you are referring to is not actually implemented, but a convenient way of viewing a D20.  We infer that a D20 is 100%, so therefore, 1/20th is 5%.  But, in game mechanics, each integer is still only 1 out of a total of 20 possibilities.  There is no missing percentage to look for.  If a roll of 19 and below is deemed necessary for a saving throw (assuming no modifiers), than a D20 roll of 19, 18, 17 etc. meets the saving throw threshold.  19 can be viewed as 95% of on a D20.  I'm still not really clear on your interpretation of something missing in this D20 range of possible numbers.  

    Also, in terms of rolling a a 1 or a 20, there is no actual automatic success or failure for saving throws, such as with a to hit chance.  All penalties and bonuses for saving throws are calculated when a saving throw must be made, and a number is generated on a D20.  If the number generated equals or exceeds the threshold, then the saving throw is made, or conversely failed, if the threshold is not reached.  This is very confusing for some, when you are dealing with characters who for instance, have a modified saving throw of say less than 1 vs. spells.  However, since all bonuses and penalties to a saving throw are calculated, there is often a small chance for powerful characters/enemies to fail their saving throw if enough modifiers are included.  I've not seen anything in the game mechanics for saving throws that guarantees a "critical" success, automatic success or failure.  In other words, there is no 5% chance of making a saving throw (no matter what) or failing a saving throw (no matter what).  It is only determined by the D20 roll with bonuses and penalties applied (if any).  
  • edited July 31
    Definitelly you have better understanding how this specific mechanic work, compared to me. I'm forced to understand it fully, because of scripts I work on.
    To just base target preference on Magic resistance, and exclude target speficic Saving Throw, is not work which result in best actual target chance to avoid effect calculation.

    For example I, as player, would rather target enemy who have 50% MR and very bad Savings, than enemy who have 40% MR and good Savings which will almost guarantee that it will avoid effect.

    What I tested and I can confirm, if no any bonus or penality is there, you can target creature 100s times, if creature have exactly Saving (of specific Saving needed) value of 1, it always made a save, if creature have 20, alway fail a save.

    Lets imagine this scenario (which I can produce). I spawn two creatures, one who cast disabling spell with no penality but require Save vs Spell, and she cast it without any delay, rapidly one after another.
    She cast it at one another spawned creature, who have Save vs Spell of 2 value (no MR, nothing else which can stop effect).

    We stop after 1000 castings. How many times would effect occur? It would lean toward a number or 50 or 100?
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  • Ok, I see your reasoning Ammanda.  If you did a sampling of 1000 events, where the chances of success and failure are a known probability, you would get a varying range of outcomes.  The more samples you perform, the closer the probability will match up with with your expected percentage.  The random number generator will introduce a randomness factor in the outcomes.  But, the more samples conducted, the better you are able to see the distribution.  The same applies if you roll dice.  There are "odds" that if you roll two 2D6's how often you may roll snake eyes.  But as any gambler on the craps table knows, you can get lucky or unlucky.  But if given enough rolls, and keeping track of the dice you roll, eventually you'll see the expected probability match up.  For your question above, If you needed a saving throw of 2 in order to save vs. an effect on a D20, I would expect that you would make the saving throw around 900 times out of 1000 attempts.  Give or take a few either way, due to the randomness factor.

    BTW, I would really hate to battle your Beholder creature.  It sounds very tough to beat.  And I always play with SCS on Insane.  Best of luck on your scripts!
  • edited July 31
    Thank you, that is exact answer I was seeking.

    And I thing that I understand mostly what you say, that is reason more why I stated number high as 1000 - on extreme large number of attempts "luck play less role into final result".

    I mean, it is possible, but very unlikely, for example that you will roll a 1 and get critical miss (speaking of weapons), big times in row. On number of 1000, I would say it is impossible.

    And if this what you state is correct, than I do not need to rework already completed Ameralis spellcasting, because I did spend solid time there, to calculate, MR, Saving vs speficic Throws, and penality her individual spell have.

    What her AI is attempting is to pick target where chance is highest effect will apply.
    She will not perform casting if chance is very low, except if her ally Succubus is dead (because she is made to cast Lower resistance and Greater Malison, who both works in favour of higher chance to apply some spell effect) or disabled.

    MR check goes first, after that Saving Throws checks, as I know.

    So I follow very simple logic, take a look at this funny example lets say you have to pass corridor with two doors blocking your way. Each door have 50% to get stuck in moment you attempt to open it. Your final chance (before you start) to pass is 25%, right?

    So far tested, indeed, seems like my scripts are doing intended ideas greatly, she really pick up best target (same what I would do if I'm controling creature in that moment).

    Thank you for your detailed help very much.

    But what you mean "my Beholder creature". In encounter I rework Beholder is replaced by another creature so I suppose you are speaking of winged demonic sorceress.
    Yes she is badass, but unlike some creatures in game, for example, she is not immune to any spell level, she was also stripped of immunities Beholder had (some others are given, but most disabling and insta-kill work on her, she is not immune).
    Most power is in AI and spells, so once you have strong enough character and NPCs to cope with game she play, and outplay her in mage chees (who would be better candidate to try than SCS Insane players?) she is left as 133HP 25% damage resistance, below average melee capability creature.
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  • Ok, sorry about the beholder creature thing.  I didn't read all the comments you had made regarding the plans to make a new creature and so forth.  From what I gather it is similar to the final Watcher's Keep seal battle with Y'Tossi, Huntress and Hive Mother.  I do love a Mage Chess match-up in SCS, especially with multiple mages all dueling back and forth.  So more power to you if you can create a script that does intelligent and adaptive targeting, similar to what a human player would do.  That would be a really great challenge to play against.  Did you use the Harpy graphic as your demonic sorceress?  Or maybe the original winged planetar would be a good one to try.
  • edited July 31


    Yes, there is ton of comments so I understand it is not so easy to read all and can be time consuming.
    It is indeed WK Final Seal (Heart Key) battle. Everyone is still there, except Beholder. It get replaced by unique character, who play, regarding offensive spells, in similar stlye to Beholder. Meaning, spaming ton of spells one after another. Many of spells Beholder used, she continue to use, but with no beholder rays, just as normal spells. Not all of them, some are removed and replaced with other spells. Some are nasty (if you are low on MR and have not good Saves), but some are just low level mage spells. She do not play in high level mage style, using very high level spells.

    Beholder Anti-magic Ray was replaced with "Unholy purge" (but spell name can be object to change before release). Same timer intervals are preserved for creature ability to cast that spell again. Difference is, AMR dispel many things from you, leave you unable to cast anything for some time, and gives you more than 100 MR (just for short time). Unholy Purge do not require ray, it instantly reach you, disple everything possible (and also removes and cure bad states), do not prevent your from spellcasting, and do not give any MR.
    Just as with Beholder, only thing that protects are Spell Shield (but she is well aware of it and will never try to cast it on SH protected enemy, instead she will use her other means and raly on allies to try to take down SH). Unlike Beholder who do not care about SH and cast keep useless castings of AMR.

    She have less HP, damage resistance, and immunities to effects, but defensive part of spellcasting, she play completely different compared to beholder. That is where she shines and what makes her strong. Whatever you attempt, she know what to do.

    Difference from vanilla and even SCS, is that this creatures never cast defensive spells if that is not needed, and even try to preserve some of them in case they get Breached (now it is complicated to explain everything, you can also force creature to cast all protections, it really depens what you do with them and how you press them).

    Far from that that creature will for example cast PfMW just because she see you. Moment you start firing arrow at her, or engange her in combat (there is ton of combinations who check is you haster, not hasted, slowed, confused), so she determine is she going to use protection, and at which enemy range.

    To make things perfect, I developed system for "final Thac0 detection", because game offer you no such thing. So they check your thac0 and their AC, to decide is worth or not to turn on defense. Run by her with some bad thac0 Thief and she will not react.

    I could easily set her (as SCS set some creatures to have unlimited recastings in that encounter, I deleted such things) to have more spells or such things, instead, I did go for this smart AI system. In my vision, it is good for players because you actually learn from them.

    Trust me, I try to cover all. If happen that you surround her with bad thac0 enemies, and have lucky rolls and start hiting her and she get wounded to some degree, she will of course respond with spell defense/combat defense.

    She starts with Spell Shield (if unable to recast SH, she is very well aware that Spell Thrust can easily burn her SI:Abjuration, so she will respond with GOI, if able to do it), Spell Trap, SI:Abjuration, and Absolute Immunity (because all of them are immune to non-magical weapons, it means nothing, just to scare you, later she have 3 castings of PfMW available).
    Have Improved invisibility, SI:Divination, improved Ghost Armor (slightly, nothing to worry about), Mirror Image, and improved StoneSkin (called Adamantite skin, with different color animation compared to StoneSkin, and have more skins than 10).

    She does not even use more protective spells, but the way she combine it, helped by her increased casting speed, is a "fortress to be conquered". She however have few castings of Spell Turning, and maybe 2 of Spell Shield, but that it thing all of your mages can have.

    And one difference from Beholder, she will fully try to target with spells always "best possible target". So it can happen that one creature end up hit by one spell, another by second, third by third..

    She is dangerous if she is left under no pressure, to freely do whatever she likes from distance.

    Yes, I can create such intelligent targeting system (along with super smart defensive system). I would dare to say, she is even better than human, because most humans not always make best decision, and most humans are not top players who know fully spell systems and tactics. Only veterans can outplay her.

    I used to spend hours just doing calculation for "chance" which we discussed (for just one single spell at time).

    As backstab immunity was stripped from her, she will try simply to run (at least to have some chance to escape some hits) if you approach with Assassination active (and are rendered as dangerous enough potential hitter), because she know Assassination last short time and can't be reused. This is assuming she is not protected from weapon of Assassin choice. Exactly, you would see some kind of very aggressive human-like play.

    Just to give you one more example how far this development goes, I will tell you about Xei Win Toh, ultimate swordsman. Her vanilla script is maybe few hundreds of lines. SCS one, as I recall, was 5000-6000. My script is little above 240000 lines - and it is pure fighter, without any spell or ability. Now imagine how she is perfoming and making decisions. And of course, she will never even try to attack enemy which she can't hit. I could write a book about her now, there is so much details, just for one fighter.

    I will attach here pictures, where you can see her small portrait, and how Unholy purge animation looks.

    This pictures serve no purpose because you do not have dialoque with them (but who knows in future?), but it is cool to have anyway.
    As you can see she is named Nyx, as my favorite Quake Champions character (it is only one I ever played and mastered). It is just for my fun now while modding, final name I plan to let players vote or suggest so we pick some cool, unique (just as others have).

    If you think this picture is not good enough, let me know, but you can also provide some you may suggest to me so I could try them.


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  • Very thorough and lots of impressive work.  She would demand a team effort to quickly defeat, with multiple spell casters.  I've been playing the spell revisions mod, and it is even tougher than regular SCS.  For instance, Spell Revisions does not have Remove magic anymore, plus instead of SI abjuration, evocation etc.  There is a new spell called "Dispel Shield", which protects against one instance of dispel magic.  It is like a spell shield, but for Dispel magic effects (including anti-magic ray or Carsomyr - any dispel magic attack).  So it does take some getting use to.  I think your badass creature would be defeated by two mages casting Khelben's warding whip, then breach X2.  Finish her off her with Whirlwind speed melee attacks.  Dead before you could get up another round of defense.  The Bhaalspawn triumphs again, haha!
  • edited July 31
    I did not play SR, but did read a lot about it.

    For first release, I fear that my encounter will not be combatible with SR. With SCS, no problem (it require SCS system "what dispels what", it is based on that).

    I understand you get used that 2X KWW and 2X Breach (assuming not both Breach at same time, it is one wasted), should get most enemies helpless and exposed and just go to finish them in melee. That "should" work in against her but.. few and there she know some tricks that another do not know in game so far, so expect her to try something, far from that she is going to wait to be killed. Every one of them have reactions and tactics if they end up Breached :D
    And do not be suprised if you notice different behaviour even before Breach in such scenario, because they are not stupid, it is not hard to imagine what you plan if you used two KWW ;)
    You need as many Breach as you can get, so take also wand of striking (that one have Breach?) It will simply happen after you Breach some of them, that they found a way out using spells they kept for such scenario, so your complete plan can have no effort (except to force her to waste some spells), and second attempt soon have to be repeated.
    Because of increased casting speed, as Minor Spell Deflections have casting time of 3, meaning for her she can cast it on fly (if spell is available and timer allow that) while your Breach are going toward her just to cancel itself with MSD. Best try Breach from closer range.

    All in all you will see in time :p
    I belive you will beat it if you decide to try, but not easy as other creatures you encounteres in game so far.

    For today I spend almost all day working on Ameralis scrips with excelent results. Now I have to do some testing for specific spell detection, and I would stop for today. I tend to play game a little after modding.


    Ah, you did not tell me for her picture.
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  • edited July 31
    It sounds fun, regardless of the danger, I love your thoughts on how to anticipate the actions of what a player may do, but savvy players will find a way to win, some how.  The best you can do is provide an experience that makes them earn it, something that they may remember as an epic battle.  In terms of picture, you are using a planetar version for the demonic badass.  Have you seen the IWD black harpy figure?  It is winged, and taller than a human male, and would be great choice.  You could try that one and I think you'd like it.  I'm not sure they can have weapon and shield animations though.  There are several versions, as well as the Wailing Virgin Night Hag that might look more female and demonic as well.  Here is a link:  http://farseek.com/bg/  The harpy files are in IWD, but several other mods have used them, including Region of Terror, CTB, Trials of the Luremaster (the best assortment was from this one).  I don't have time to look for a image to attach right now, as I'm off to work.  Talk with you later.
  • If you have Drizzt Saga installed just use
    C:CreateCreature("F_harpy")
    It is in that mod, maybe @LichDiet mixed it with Region of Terror, the other Drizzt mod?
  • There is creature in NI as I had just look, F_harpy , 100HP, but do not have any picture.
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  • PS - Drizzt Saga also has Wailing Death
    F_Wailing

    However Wailing Virgin is an animation file. I use it for the goddess Shar in Return to Faerun, so if you have that installed you can see her with
    C:CreateCreature("CVSharg")
  • Ammanda said:
    There is creature in NI as I had just look, F_harpy , 100HP, but do not have any picture.
    Just posted above your response
    C:CreateCreature("F_harpy")
    It is from Drizzt Saga.

  • edited July 31
    Lich - I'm going to call you Lich from now :p

    So, you expect some reward from fighting in epic battle?

    Ok, maybe I already anticipated this and I will let you know what is reward.

    Improved Gauntlets of extraordinary specialisation - now gives +1APR, +2 Thac0, and +3 damage. On top of that, it gives AC bonus (as modifiers) to Slashing, Crushing, Piercing, as 1.

    As in modded game even in BG1 you get gauntlets which provide +1APR, some others provide +2 thac0 +2 damage +1 or 2 AC.

    In EET game items gets way stronger compater to vanilla, so vanilla Gauntlets of extraordinary specialisation, in my view, started to lose on value, so, to make them again attractive (and you have anyway to cope further with strong encounters), I did upgrade them. And now Xei Win Toh drops them, not Y'Tossi, for reason to make encounter easier for players (she is easier to kill than Y'Tossi, so immidiately you have to grab them and equip them to someone to boost your party).

    Huntress drop one gray/black nice boots with unique picture. Just as Boots of Speed, these on gives you +200% speed, but, additionally, also gives +1 to base speed.
    You get little AC bonus, and little AC Missile modifier bonus.
    And +1 to Dexterity (many NPC lacks in stats, so nice help is ok).

    I think this is 2 cool items. One new unique, and one already popular, now upgraded.

    And that is not all. Every one of six girls drops one Amelioration vial. Every vial is speficic and provide nice bonuses and some immunities. Including slight increase of casting speed.

    Because encounter is hard - this is made intended, so you are expected to grab vials and use it even during fight (it can really at least help a little). After you win, all boost is yours. However I made it in such way to preserve some balance, while at same time to help players during battle. So, do not expect with these vials to have super easy rest of game. They help indeed, but most of that help is intended to help in this specific encounter.
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  • No sorry, that Shar pic looks like zombie and it way smaller that picture should be.

    I did check in NI for every creature from Drizzt Saga you suggested, I have these files, but non of them have portrait icon.
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  • Ammanda said:
    No sorry, that Shar pic looks like zombie and it way smaller that picture should be.

    I did check in NI for every creature from Drizzt Saga you suggested, I have these files, but non of them have portrait icon.
    I misunderstood you.
    I thought you look for animation not for portrait...

  • Ah, you misunderstood me, because I misunderstood him in first place. I wrongly concluded that he is talking about portrait picture, not animaton.

    And you supposted that I did understand him properly, while I did not.

    No, I'm more than enough satisfied with this animation. For me, it really fits and there is no much such creatures. She is also same skin color as Xei Win Toh, that should be demonic, I suppose.

    Anyway, if happen that anyone have better picture to suggest, be free to send me, or give me link leading to picture.
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  • I however did take a look at creatures in game, whose .cre file names you provided. Harpy, no way. F_Wailin, not bad but we already have one with Succubus/Fairy animation.
    As for Shar, it is not bad it is way better than many we can find, but still this current I would say fits very well. I could explain in more depth I'm not almost asleep.
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  • Sorry, I did not understand all of you properly yesterday.

    About animations, I did check F_Wailing from Drizzt Saga, but in my case, there is Succubus/Sirine animation.

    Looking at your Shar creature, she uses WAILING_VIRGIN animation, and that is probably animation Lich was suggesting.

    About creature I created, she uses CLERIC_FEMALE_ELF animation, she is not using planetar animation.

    I just give Sandrah XP by console to get Deva and this is how it looks like in my install.

    And it was always like that (Planetar was same or similar), except in one install before I recall, Deva had indeed look pretty similar to my creature. Which mod or component change that, I have no idea.
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  • There is a red version of the planetar which appears in ToB final fight, it is a fallen planetar (or something similar).
  • Yes I know for fallen version.

    Only one time happened, I mean in one my install before, that Devas (it was fallen, cast by Ameralis) had look pretty similar to creature from my encounter.
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  • Hi ladies.  Sorry I caused confusion about animation vs. portrait.  I was referring to animations in my previous messages.  In terms of Ammanda's animation for her badass sorceress, I thought that a Harpy would look kind of demonic and monstrous, and would be a wee bit more imposing in size.  To be honest, a female elf-sized super villain isn't that powerful looking.  Here is a screen shot from an IWD game, with some NPCs fighting a few harpys: https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/icewind-dale-heart-of-winter-trials-of-the-luremaster/screenshots/gameShotId,98348/ This is what I had in mind, just as a suggestion. It appears that this is a polish language version screenshot, and I think quite a few posters on here are Polish speakers.
  • It was me who did not understand. I was so tired that I did not even play game a little as I was hoped (these days are extreme hot resulting with insomnia for me for most of time, just hoping this will finally pass).

    I know harpies from Drizzt Saga mostly. Nasty creatures, but I just do not see it fit into being "unique villian". WAILING_VIRGIN compared to Harpy, IMO, is better, but I did check, it do not have attack animation.

    Ah.. about size, you know I was exactly thinking about that when I was creating this sorceress, it was my idea to make her look like "small, but still badass". After all, to be magic badass expert do not require you to be huge :) 

    Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions. But unless I see something specific which would fit better maybe, I would keep this one.
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  • Ok, I see your reasoning.  Maybe the Dark Fallen Planetar is worth a look, since it wields a sword as well. 

    Cut Scene:  Demogorgon's siren call reaches out across the planes to entice a varied cohort of evil beings to inhabit the lower levels of Watcher's Keep...waiting for foolhardy explorers who dare defile the seal...(ominous music plays in background, while Jan Jansen scratches himself and munches on a turnip)
  • I will take a look.

    I was asking myself about WK and also this party, from 20 years ago when I played first time.

    It seems like whole ToB was rushed and half-baked. Not only WK.

    Probably they just throw creatures there, by logic lets pick and place a few different ones, and give them cool names, except Hive Mother. They really somehow get cool names for them.

    But there is no any story.

    Up to this day, I have no idea was everyone in WK summoned somehow by Demogorgon, or placed by Helm to test you, etc.

    But this party did leave impression at me 20 years ago, I was asking myself "from where are such great warriors, without any story behind". Impression was additionaly boosted by fact at that moment I was a TOTAL noob, with almost 0% knoweledge of any game mechanics, so fight was super hard for me.
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  • I agree.  The back story of helm and the imprisoned one is Ok, but the various hodge podge of beings on each level, except maybe the first level, makes little sense.  What's up with all those "Elemental Mages" occupying labs and libraries all interconnected?  Why would they be there?  What do they have to do with Helm and imprisoning the evil?  Then there is the utter nonsense of a Red Dragon occupying a lair, that it cannot escape.  The list goes on.  And if Demogorgon wanted to escape, why would he draw evil to the tower, and make it harder for anyone to enter and free himself?  So many questions.  But, it is a fun quest, and that is the main thing.
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